Curse

Cowboy Nastyman · Oct 17, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akane

Re-reading this thread (in Vegas all week - can't play), I noticed "legless the elf" said he used Physical Resistance instead of Protective Spirit for the Tank. Not sure if he was just blowing smoke though.

Anyone else try this? This could have a few benefits - durable, not removable, and instant cast. Dying Nightmares would me much less a threat. Don't know what else he would use for tank build - perhaps Zealot's Fire and spam Reversal of Fortune for extra heals between Spirit Bond chaining?

a mistake im sure as an aaxte would hit for around 600 without prot, bye bye monk

Akane · Oct 17, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Not a mistake... I thought it was a typo, but Legless also mentioned it in his other thread (see links on top of first post in this thread).

Guess we're so accustomed to PS that we couldn't imagine venturing into UW without it.

Physical Resistance gives you +40 armor against physical damage - bringing the damage down considerably. It also gives -14 to -24 armor against ele damage.

Not sure how it impacts the Smites, Colfires and Dryders though...

Akane · Oct 17, 2006, 06:59 AM // 06:59

In reviewing the earlier thread from Legless the Elf (first link on top of first page), I think the choice of Physical Resistance is flawed and Protective Spirit is clearly the better. Legless was probably speculating on the build, as Factions hadn't been released by that point. (I noticed he had 5 enchants for the smiter, which will quickly crap out with Holy Wrath included)

I think Exile of Heaven (and brother) rescued the build with a more effective combo of PS and SBond to "force the damage between the gap" as Kabale so eloquently stated in that earlier thread (post #18)

Akane · Oct 17, 2006, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Velath, if the smiter could get Healing Seed on you that might work for the Wraithful Spirits...

Another choice is to spam RoF on yourself. That would mean dropping Blessed Sig and having Smiter go Necro secondary to bring BR for energy recovery between battles.

Conversely, perhaps SoJ (shield not signet) from the smiter would slow them down enough for you to recover. Though that would also mean shutting off Holy Wrath.

Best yet, how bout the smiter casts Spell Breaker and the tank carries Shield of Regeneration? With Blessed Aura and a Totem Axe, SoR could last a good 18 seconds. With a 20 second recharge or faster (using 20-20 prot icon) there could be constant +10 health regen in a pinch. The Spirit Bond might not work with the extra 40 armor, but the tank would be mighty tough to take down for those particular circumstances like the Wraithful Spirits.

The smiter would flip weapons to access energy reserve and cast SB. It would be shorter duration without the extra benefit of Blessed Aura, but the tank could jump off to a much quicker start without needing to cast Blessed Signet.

moko · Oct 17, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

the wrathful spirits can be killed without any real skills - you run around and wand them. thats how spirit bonders need to do it if they want a proper build with fast speed. ive done it a few times~ you just wand, run, wand, and they slowly fall. all take enchants off, and if the smiter happens to carry SS (which is better than SOJ), thne its even easier.

or well, just make it even easier. make your tank a 55 with low AL, take spirit bond AND breeze, and you wont have many problems. ;p (breeze for physical resistance btw)

also Akane, why cant you post all in one? use [.quote] text [./quote] instead of replying one to one, its annoying to read through 3 posts instead of one.

also for the obsidians, tanker takes off blessed aura so he wont have to deal with -2 regen.

and yes, for servants of grenth, youll want to tank meteor shower all the time and dont move at all. ;p else they'll kill you with ease, and make sure to SPAM your spells so you get enough divine favor healing to stay alive~ no spellbreaker though!

also i dont see the problem with the elites and energy lack due to holy wrath. just keep wrath on all time and dont care for your elite except if you face casters, for those you take wrath off - simple as that! DONT cast soj for smites, aatxes or whatever, it SLOWS DOWN the killing, because in the time they were kd'ed they would attack at least trice, so rit and holy wrath outdamage soj over time!

Akane · Oct 17, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Mokone - good point on the lack of qoutes. Will do.

Making the tank a 55 works defensively, but doesn't it reduce the offence from Holy Wrath & Retribution? I thought that was the whole point of the 600 monk. The dual SB build works terrific for basic smite runs, but Velath is trying to push the limits of the dual monk beyond that.

Your tips are solid - stand in meteor shower and don't use SB on ele's. Take Blessed Aura off for Obsidians. Switching to the 55 build for Wrathful Spirits quest is brilliant. That just means switching gear (including sup-vig sandals) and taking off Vital Blessing.

As you mentioned, Healing Breeze is needed to complete the transformation. However, what spell does the tank drop to carry Healing Breeze? You said Physical Resistance, but the build uses Frenzy or Elemental Resistance.

Akane · Oct 17, 2006, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Here’s an idea… the tank can switch to a flexible variation of 55 Mo/N or even an N/Mo (see Godlike Satan’s solo build).

Drop Blessed Aura, Blessed Signet, Frenzy/Elemental Resistance. Instead carry Healing Breeze, Spiteful Spirit, Mending.

The smiter can cast Spell Breaker when needed. Only drawback is wouldn’t the damage from Holy Wrath be reduced considerably? Perhaps the Tank could run with higher health for sections that will utilze Spirit Bond, and a straight 55 when needed.

Here's what I came up with...

Dual SB Tank – Mo/N
DF +3, Prot +4, Heal +3, Curses
1. Protective Spirit
2. Spirit Bond
3. Healing Breeze
4. Awaken the Blood <---- Suffering (use to trigger Smite Hex before SS and Reckless Haste)
5. Spiteful Spirit
6. Reckless Haste
7. Mending
8. Essence Bond

Smite-Bonder – Mo/any
Smite+4, Prot+3, DF+3
1. Balthazaar’s Spirit (on tank)
2. Watchful Spirit (or Succor) <---- Vital Blessing (as per Velath)
3. Retribution
4. Holy Wrath
5. Blessed Signet
6. Spell Breaker
7. Smite Hex (or Balthazaar's Aura)
8. Rebirth

The tank might as well carry Mending if Healing Breeze is needed anyways.
The smiter can put Balthazaar's Spirit on tank and on self (if needed).

Idea - for Obsidians, the smiter could drop Holy Wrath, recast Balthazaar's Spirit for self-gain and use Balthazaar's Aura.

Akane · Oct 17, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Not sure on Awaken the Blood - though 5 points in Blood would also give the extra energy from the -50 Grim Cesta. Perhaps another hex would be better. Godlike Satan uses Shadow of Fear on Smites just to make them waste their Smite Hex before casting SS and Reckless Haste.

Reckless Haste could give double benefit with SS and Holy Wrath.

Casting SS and Reckless Haste in the chamber with full Aatxe and Grasping aggro is probably impossible for the tank. They'll die fast anyways.

Comments?

Velath · Oct 17, 2006, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Mokone and Akane, thanks some good comments there. I won't quote them cause I agree with or want to try almost everything you said. But I won't be switching to just 55 and running it, I did that enough before, but the idea of 605 and 55 has me intrigued.

I've tried just picking up HB at one time before, and it didn't work very well. I think I got rid of sig to do that, it can be done but wasn't very much fun at all!

Next time I might just try the wand and run thing Mokone, specially with my smiting buddy sitting there dropping signets occasionally it might not be too bad. Would have to get a feel of time required.

Akane I looked at your idea for the Mo/N + Mo and think you might be on to something. Did some looking at the skills and have a few questions/ suggestions. Wasn't too sure about Awaken the blood as you can get curses up pretty high anyway, and don't know how often in the battle I would use it. Would have to try it out as it looks pretty smooth For attributes I think I'd run like:
12+1 (+3) Protection
6 (+3) Healing
11 Curses
The brackets being for when the 55 armor was on, and of course the other superiors as well. I think this would effectively use up your attributes, maxing prot for tanking part and leaving you with +10 health regen during the 55. No DF skills FTW!

For the Smite/Ench monk I would suggest two things. Change out watchful spirit for either life attunement or vital blessing as you can't have more than 10 health regen anyway. I was going to say remove sig of devotion, but it's gone now, and you really could have a free spot for a smite skill of your choice.
10+3 Divine
10+3+1 Protection
11+3 Smiting
This was chosen just because of balance though, would have to tweak a little depending on how it went, should be easy to work though.

Now I want to test it out and see how it works...too bad I'm at work (and we wouldn't have favour anyway!)

For the AL problem with the coldfires spell breaker might have to be avoided or possibly a -armor offhand (is there such a thing, I thought I had one but not sure!?)

Akane · Oct 17, 2006, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Vital Blessing - good choice Velath. That way the health (and damage) could be boosted up for the chamber run. It could then be removed anytime a 55 setup was needed - such as Wrathful Spirits.

Will the build still be ok without the Frenzy or Elemental Resistance? What would be the best starting health for the tank for each target group?

moko · Oct 17, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akane

Mokone - good point on the lack of qoutes. Will do.

Making the tank a 55 works defensively, but doesn't it reduce the offence from Holy Wrath & Retribution? I thought that was the whole point of the 600 monk. The dual SB build works terrific for basic smite runs, but Velath is trying to push the limits of the dual monk beyond that.

Your tips are solid - stand in meteor shower and don't use SB on ele's. Take Blessed Aura off for Obsidians. Switching to the 55 build for Wrathful Spirits quest is brilliant. That just means switching gear (including sup-vig sandals) and taking off Vital Blessing.

As you mentioned, Healing Breeze is needed to complete the transformation. However, what spell does the tank drop to carry Healing Breeze? You said Physical Resistance, but the build uses Frenzy or Elemental Resistance.

my bad, for some reason i was thinking of an SS necro instead of the holy smiter - yes, 55 would ruin it, so taking another armor set with you for the wrathful is the way to go. and physical resistance..sorry, was messing up there, i did mean elemental resistance.

and Velath, be warned, the wanding thing goes indeed take some while and can cost nerves. ;p

Akane · Oct 17, 2006, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Mokone, switching to the full-out 55 means you can take on the Wrathful Spirits without needing to run away. If required, you could even throw a Healing Breeze on a Villager to keep them alive (and the smiter could throw on the unused Vital Blessing).

What's more useful - Smite Hex for Chaos Planes, etc. or Balthazaar's Aura for Obsidians??? With the tank using SS, I imagine the Obsidians will go down quickly anyways.

Velath · Oct 17, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akane

Will the build still be ok without the Frenzy or Elemental Resistance? What would be the best starting health for the tank for each target group?

I wouldn't suggest taking on the large groups of graspings without the atxes with even 30 armor they don't always trigger spirit bond. That's why I was thinking of maybe finding a minus armor offhand just for some insurance. I prefer my health between 600-700 as that way you can tank for quite a while even without spirit bond activating always and still stay alive fairly well. Although I haven't tried it yet without any divine favour! The first times I ran the original tank build I didn't use ele resistance and still survived the graspings so it's possible, just plan to see that health bar jump around!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akane

What's more useful - Smite Hex for Chaos Planes, etc. or Balthazaar's Aura for Obsidians??? With the tank using SS, I imagine the Obsidians will go down quickly anyways.

Smite hex would work better on the planes than I think balth's aura would for the obsidians, plus it would mean the ench monk would have to get close enough to cast it and with 4 maintained enchants it means bye to holy wrath. Have to stay out of that nature's renewal(?) spirit's range.

I don't know if you would really want to use smite hex though, with the mindblades they tend to mass spread hexes if anyone else is near which sometimes causes problems! Still it might be worth a try.

Akane · Oct 17, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Good point - best not to go near those Mindblades!

So what to take for the last slot? Could be an alternate enchant for the 55 build - to replace Vital Blessing or Retribution. Which would you choose of the following?

Holy Veil
Succor
Watchful Spirit
Life Attunement
Life Bond

Would Life Bond even work? Does it work after Protective Spirit or before? In other words, would the smiter take any damage with PS active on the tank?

I guess my inclination would be Life Attunement to boost the heals from Spirit Bond.
That way you could swap (using 2/3) between Vital Blessing, Life Attunement and Retribution depending on the circumstances.

Velath · Oct 17, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

I like that idea, swappable enchants...Life attunement would probably be the safe way to go and would sure make it easier in some situations. Maybe with some practice and some confidence in the build you could switch to holy veil and then cancel some of the hexes they love to pile on. Although I'm not sure if it would be worth it as they'd recast that hex about a second after it's been removed when the whole load of them are attacking. I guess a boring idea would be one of the signets (rage/bane) but that's not near as interesting!

Edit: With Life Bond you would still take some dmg (say 5-10) with the tank's hitpoints being 600-700. But maybe you've stumbled upon another little gem. Say you got rid of vital blessing and kept health at 500 or less, the smiter wouldn't take any damage and the tank would only take 25. Of course that assumes life bond activates after spirit bond and protective spirit. I'm not sure if it does, but I doubt it! Still might be worth heading out into trolls or something somewhere to check it out, you'll know right away if you take 100 dmg!

Akane · Oct 17, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Spirit Bond comes before Protective Spirit, but if Life bond came first it would reduce chance for Spirit Bond (and kill smiter quick - not good). If it came last (after PB), then the tank could carry a few sup runes (keep Vital Blessing active) and take on almost anything.

I seem to remember trying Lifebond in UW way way back. I think I got a hard lesson in that half of full damage from Aatxes was transfered and cut me into pieces in a few hits.

lokipindle · Oct 18, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Hey im looking to run this build, but no pugs seem to be doing it so if anyone having trouble finding partner pm me "Loki Pindleskin" Amercian

Akane · Oct 18, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

*posting edited*
According to Guildwiki's Spirit Bonding Guide, Holy Wrath and Retribution do damage after Protective Spirit. So, that means 6.6% and 3.3% of your maximum health. And that means the higher your base health, the more the damage - to a limit. At lvl 15 Smiting Prayers the damage limit for Retribution is 20, and 50 for Holy Wrath.

According to my sloppy math, Retribution tops out around 600HP and Holy Wrath about 755HP (at lvl 15 Smiting Prayers). No point pumping your health beyond that.

So, the idea of this build is to run mostly at high health - using the 55 build only when needed. If the 55 must be used, get damage from SS.

Anyways, the extra damage from SS will help, especially when a 55 build is needed.

The guide brought up another interesting option for the smiter - Edge of Extinction. It would definately eliminate those pesky leftover smites. This dual build is designed for big aggro. The tank could probably aggro the entire friggin' ice field - Coldfires and all. EoE could be scary good and help easily clear that big swarm of Dryders at the Ice King quest. And besides - every monk could get his own pet spidey.

Only trouble is - what to give up on the smiter for EoE?

*edit - forget EoE. No way the smiter should be getting that close to the action.

Spirit Of Azrael · Oct 18, 2006, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Why not just 55/SS, I'm sorry, but I isn't 55/SS Faster?

Akane · Oct 18, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

No. The dual SB can clear much faster. The 600 monk tank can handle a much bigger aggro and is much less fragile. The smiting does very fast damage, but not if the tank runs a 55 build.

The dual SB has limitations though. There are some areas in UW where the 55 build is much better. So that's what we're doing here - coming up with a hybrid build that offers the best of both and can let the tank switch back and forth. That way more missions and further clearance of UW can be accomplished.

A good N/Mo can now run solo anyways.

The tank could be a Mo/N or a N/Mo. I'm not sure which would be better.